Jeff Goodman Discusses NC State Job
I heard Jeff Goodman (FoxSports) on the Dave Glenn show today. Jeff (who is an Arizona alum btw) brought up that if Sean Miller manages to somehow take down Duke tonight, that Debbie Yow should give him a blank cheque. This prompted Glenn to ask Jeff why it is so tough to lure coaches away from a top 25 job (I know, dumb question). Goodman's answer focused on NC State . . .
He said that in the case of NC State, there are 4 issues that keep coaches from taking the job:
1) Crazy fanbase
2) Duke and UNC
3) You can't win there unless you cheat
4) Negative opinions of Yow in the coaching fraternity
It is Goodman's assertion that these are widely held opinions of coaches. Of course Glenn, who I am no big fan of, did not choose to question any of these points, so I will.
1) Let's see how NC State's "unrealistic" fanbase has treated its most recent coaches. Sidney Lowe coached for 5 years without finishing better than 9th in the ACC, and he still had significant support until his 5th season proved to be another failure. Herb Sendek coached for 10 (TEN!) years receiving wholesale support from the fanbase until his disastrous 5th season where his team fell extremely short of expectations. He managed to hang on for another 5 years, but in my opinion once you lose a significant portion of the fanbase, it will take an extraordinary achievement to win it back. Unfortunately for Herb, he only had moderate success and decided to head west for more money. So our lunatic fanbase has made is so hard on the coaches at NC State that we have had 2 coaches in the last 15 years.
96-97 season to present
BC - 3 coaches
Clemson - 4 coaches
Duke - 1 coach
GT - 3 coaches
FSU - 3 coaches
UNC - 4 coaches
Maryland - 1 coach
Miami - 3 coaches
Virginia - 4 coaches
Virginia Tech - 4 coaches
Wake Forest - 4 coaches
Man, NC State fans sure are awful.
2) Why are coaches not fleeing the Big East? Why would anyone want to coach in the SEC when you have to go up against Florida and Kentucky? Why would anyone want to coach in the Big 10 against Ohio State and Michigan State? Why would anyone want to coach in the Big 12 against Kansas and Texas? Why would anyone want to coach in the Pac-10 against UCLA and Arizona? The Duke-UNC argument is beyond stupid.
3) It seems to be a widely held opinion that NC State is, at worst, a top half ACC job, and most people seem to think of it as the 3rd or 4th best ACC job along with Maryland. Are you telling me that coaches do not think you can win at a top half ACC job without cheating? Herb managed to go to 5 NCAA tournaments and I never heard rumors of him cheating. Why would a coach have to cheat to succeed at an ACC school with a large fanbase that is passionate about basketball and has had success in the modern era and seems to have no trouble recruiting?
4) There seems to be so much conflicting information about what the coaching collective thinks of Yow that it leads me to believe that there may be some coaches concerned about her relationship with Gary Williams, but it is by no means the majority.
I mainly thought Goodman's response was noteworthy because the cheating response was a new one and, imo, ridiculous.
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I almost didn't post this
because what is the point anymore? Idiots are going to be idiots.
by PACKHOOLIGAN on Mar 24, 2011 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions
it just astounds me how much Duke and UNC get held against us
Our recruiting has been fine for the most part over the last decade. I also wonder how many of these guys understand how good our facilities are. Covering a game at the RBC is one thing, seeing the locker rooms, training rooms, practice facility, etc is another.
1. Crazy Fanbase
Interesting article on SI on an American former Cornell basketball player playing professionally in Israel. One sentence jumped out at me. Talking about the local fans.
“They are everything a basketball player could ask for in a fan base: loyal, proud, and feverishly supportive.”
I conclude we are EXACTLY what a fan base should be as defined by a player.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/the_bonus/03/22/israel.hoops/index.html?eref=sihp
First post from a UNC fan...
I know y’all don’t like my kind around here, but I’m really wanting the ’pack to come back and make this thing a three-way rivalry again.
There’s nothing crazy about the NC State fanbase that isn’t crazy in the best way. Y’all only got that reputation because coaches and media around the country liked Herb so much, they wanted to blame it on the fans. (And because you’re an ag and tech school. People love to be arrogant snobs about that, my light blue compatriots included.) They said the same thing about UNC after the Doherty debacle, that UNC was “letting the lunatics run the asylum.” Yeah, and that worked out SO badly…
You gave Sid 5 years, which is what any coach should get absent academic or ethical problems, or crazy behavior (cough Doherty cough). FWIW, big respect to Lowe, who was a good man who ran the program the right way, but just wasn’t up to the job. Know how y’all feel on that one — we went through that with Bunting.
Oh, and about the whole “can’t win with Duke and UNC there” thing. Um, what? In 1980 the buzz was that nobody would ever take the Duke job, because you couldn’t win with State and UNC there. It’s like people forget State’s won a national title with two different coaches and has a perfect season on the books. I’ll let the national media in on a secret — the way you become an elite program is by hiring a good coach, recruiting good players, then going out and beating people. Then they start calling you an elite program. Sshh, don’t tell.
Here’s hoping you get Marshall, and that he tears up the ACC. Um, except 2-3 times a year, of course… :)
Well Said!
Here’s to getting back to it being a nightmare anywhere on Tobacco Road for visiting basketball teams!
Cheating accusation isn't new...
Unfortunately. During the last coaching search I lived in Richmond, Va. and even local sports talk dismissed the NC State basketball program that has demonstrated a lack of success unless “cheating” were involved. And I believe our good buddy Doyel may have made a similar statement is his goodbye lamentation/you’ll be sorry diatribe for Herb. And it’s typical media – one tiny statement completely out of context. Like somehow players selling their excess shoes and courtesy tickets were irrefutably and inextricably and directly linked to the ’83 championship. Or somehow DT was blackmailed and forcibly coerced to attending NC State because of one pick-up game (even as I understand it he was already signed). But the rumors persist and present themselves as fact. I had toyed around for a few years with writing a 20th anniversary rebuttal to Personal Fouls and did a lot of Internet research, and you would be amazed at how many people believe and/or report as fact that the Valvano-era Wolfpack were engaged in point shaving and narcotics trafficking. I poop you not.
Pack, all of your answers
are the truth, everything Goodman said is the perception. the perception has been created by the national sports media. State fans cannot beat the national sports media.
no disrepect to the UNC fan who wrote that he wanted State to become a power again, but, i have a friend who is a big UNC fan and he says the same thing. in response i write that each is only writing or saying that because for the last 20 years, UNC has kicked our ass. let me write that if State football keeps kicking UNC football’s ass and UNC football bites the dust as they should due to the issues for which they are being investigated, i will not ever wish that UNC football comes back-ever.
again-no disrespect to MTBinDurham.
Bristol CT
Was spreading similar nonsense this afternoon. We State fans are crazy for thinking we can get coach X, Y. or Z. But I feel certain that Yow will find a coach with the integrity of Sendek and competitive spirit of Norm Sloan. I believe the level of success attained by Gary Williams over the last fifteen years is possible here too. The right coach can win conference and regional titles. Maybe with luck, the Final Four!
by StateFans2Glory on Mar 24, 2011 10:20 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
There's a Simple Reason Why It's Hard to Lure a Coach Away from a Top 25 Job
It’s that they all have really good jobs already. Once you get to that level, unless you really have ties to school wooing you or are unhappy, you’re not going to leave a sure thing. It took UNC two tries to get Roy Williams, and it was still touch and go; UCLA tried to lure both Valvano and Krzyzewski to L.A. in the ‘80s when they were the much better job, and whiffed. Even Kentucky, perhaps the best program at hiring away others, has had for they’re last two hires a complete failure and a guy who’s programs have had violations at every school he’s coached at.
I don’t understand State’s obsession with the biggest name. Their two best hires of the ACC-era were a Duke assistant and the coach at Iona. There are a lot of good hires available this season, yet some fans are still spreading rumors about Rick Barnes.
Totally agree
with “why it is hard to lure a coach away”, this is why it was such a dumb question.
by PACKHOOLIGAN on Mar 25, 2011 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
It's about risk tolerance
When you’ve had three straight failed hires and 20 years of irrelevance, your risk tolerance is pretty low. One more bad hire and we’re DePaul.
Shaka Smart may be the next K (except not an asshole). More likely, he’s the next Herb Sendek or Stan Heath. Either way, I sure as hell do not want to find out firsthand.
The UNC-Duke arguments stands due to recruiting
it’s not the fact that you have to play them every year – but that you have to recruit against them.
Everyone recruits against Duke and UNC
It’s not like a list of 10 players each year is made and the powers that be say, you guys can only go to Duke, UNC, or NC State; schools you can only recruit from this list.
by PACKHOOLIGAN on Mar 25, 2011 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
wrong wrong wrong wrong
Recruiting is NOT the problem at NC State. It is NEVER the problem at NC State.
If I have time, I will find the list of top 100 players who have signed with NC State over the past 15 years. It’s as good as or better than anyone not named Duke, UNC, Kentucky, Kansas, UCLA. And that was with a no-personality mediocrity followed by an inept career NBA assistant.
No, we don’t recruit as well as UNC or Duke. Yes, any decent coach can recruit more than enough good players here to have a top 10-15 team, provided said coach actually knows what the hell he is doing.
Sorry for the rant, but if there is one myth that bothers me about our job, it’s the “can’t recruit here” myth, because it is so easily disproven.
here you go
http://statsheet.com/bhsb/recruits_by_college
Since 1998, NC State has signed 24 top 100 kids—13th most in college basketball.
Here are Sendek’s classes:
1st class – Thornton(top 60), Wells, Gainey (Sendek got the commitment from Thornton)
2nd class – Miller(top40), Inge(top 60), Ron Kelly(top 60), C. Williams. R. Thomas, Ron Anderson(?),
3rd class – Adam Harrison(#25), K. Bean(#64), Anthony Grundy, Anthony Grundy(1st team all-ACC)
4th class – M. Williams(#33), D. Wilkins(#11), C. Crawford(#81)
5th class – S. Sherril(#38), M. Melvin(#98), Mike Bell(#95), Trey Guidry
6th class – Hodge(#7), Evtimov, Powell(#65), Collins and Watkins(#60)
7th class – Flatt, Mejia, Simons, Bennerman(#84)
8th class – Atsur(top 50), Mike O’Donell
9th class – Grant(#78), C. Simmons(#34), Brackman(#60)
10th class – Costner(#22), Fells(#35), McCauley
11th class – D. Werner(#94), L. Davis, D. Horner
Lowe’s top 100 players:
- JJ Hickson
- Tracy Smith
- Richard Howell
- D. Painter
- CJ Leslie
- Ryan Harrow
- Lorenzo Brown
NBA players recruited by State:
Josh Powell
Damien Wilkins
Julius Hodge(gun shot injury didn’t help his career)
Cedric Simmons
Adam Harrington
Anthony Grundy
JJ Hickson
CJ Leslie(likely this year anways)
all-ACC guys that didn’t make the NBA
Marcus Melvin
CC Harrison
Tracy Smith
Brandon Costner
Cameron Bennerman
You guys
didn’t even get a hat tip from statefansnation on today’s post that covers this exact information.
by PACKHOOLIGAN on Mar 28, 2011 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
We had a hard time landing a good coach once
and that was the last search. I do not even like to say that we had a hard time last time, because Lee Fowler ran such a bungled search, that it is impossible to say, “this coach said no simply because the NCSU coaching position is not a good one.”
ANY ACC school should be able to land a “good” coach. There are so many mid-major guys looking for their break that it is almost impossible to do as poor a job as Fowler did 5 years ago. Instead of the last search taking the logical progression of big names → mid-majors → done, it went big names → tv analysts → alums with no college coaching experience – > done.
by PACKHOOLIGAN on Mar 28, 2011 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Why did Tennessee have such a hard time landing a good coach in football?
You should know well from experience that the quality of your job does not necessarily match the quality of coach you hire. Bad timing and inept administrators can cause big problems.
timing
Kiffin quit at the last minute. Has that been the case w NC State?
Administrators are a legit issue though…
Here's the latest I'm hearing
NC State is making the obligatory calls to the big names, but many are unlikely to accept. Shaka Smart is not high on the list, but it may come down to him. Also, don’t rule out Jeff Capel (I don’t like it).
Brian Gregory is interested in the position…
I agree that we will most likely whiff on the big names
much like every other school would whiff. I just don’t see why we get so much shit for seeing if the big names might have an interest.
by PACKHOOLIGAN on Mar 25, 2011 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
If we hire Jeff Capel or Brian Gregory, I will f---ing shoot myself
That means we are a worse job than Clemson.
Shaka Smart
I might like us picking him if I thought that Havoc D would be effective in the ACC. If Miller truly isn’t available then I like Marshall’s defensive philosophy.
by StateFans2Glory on Mar 26, 2011 10:14 PM EDT via mobile reply actions

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